Too Many Strippers!

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Originally posted by Danielle

In any case, this whole situation has really pissed me off. I have really enjoyed using this website. Not only have I learned a lot about the customer's stand point on many issues but I've also come to terms with a lot of things about myself and how I view my job. But in light of recent events my opinion of UG has really been knocked down a few notches. I really thought I had finally found a place where I could speak openly and honestly about things effecting my career and in turn recieve some honest feedback. Apparently not everything goes. My intentions were never to in any way to promote my bussiness or that of the club that I work for. It was all just innocent thoght provoking conversation, I thought. Oh well. fuck it.

not that my advice means much but here ya go..

Danielle, its tough being here. I I know, I have been pissed beyond words about a million times because the men here just did not get me, or why I would be here and not selling myself.

If you are learning more about your profession, and what customers want or do not want. If its making you a better stripper, then by all means stick around and keep learning.

I dont know if there is more to this story, but if you are on the "up and up" take the hits, bumps, and bruises( and trust me there will be a lot) from the men on the board. But don't forget to give some back as well.

Respect the board rules, dont ever ever diss the way the board is run. NEVER diss Slinky, and your time here will be very productive...

If you cant take it, or except the rules..well..then.... you know..
Originally posted by Danielle
Perhaps totally off topic, I have something to mention that I was thinking about when I was on stage tonight, . . . .
Whether Danielle stays or goes, it occurs to me that we've already seen something perhaps totally unprecedented.

Imagine this, guys. You're at a mainstream strip club. You're looking up at the stage watching some attractive young women gyrate suggestively, removing her clothes, her facial features alternating between expressions of desire and satisfaction.

Unbeknownst to you, while she's going through this mime show, what she's really thinking of is . . . Utopia Guide board politics.
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Boring Legalistic Post

Since Danielle seems so frustrated and confused by some of the APM's recent rule interpretations, and since the APM apparently makes a policy of not explaining his actions, I thought it might help if this admitted outsider gave his understanding of why things happened the way they have in different situations she's mentioned. I should note that this is all strictly my interpretation from the outside and is not based on any inside information or anything like that.

The basic premise at issue here is that the Board Rules forbid self-promotion by supply-siders who haven't paid to take out ads. Once a supply-sider takes out an ad, she is free to post whatever she wants by way of self-promotional material in posts.

The problem, obviously, is telling what constitutes self-promotional material. Which leads to some close calls.

1. Magnifique. Magnifique disclosed her workplace in response to a question by another stipper -- Danielle, in fact -- after Magnifique had expressed misgivings about hustling similar to those Danielle had expressed and mentioned that such was the reason why she (Magnifique) worked at a club that did not feature private dances. It seemed to me at the time that the APM let Magnifique's answer stand because the request for information came from a fellow industry member asking out of her own industry-based interest, so that under the circumstances the information was neither requested nor given in a commercial promotional context.

I think the APM might have felt a little bitten in the ass by his decision to let that post stand, however. Because once the cat was out of the bag, Magnifique embarked on a truly impressive campaign of self-promotion (threads linking to pictures of her on her club's website, threads about how she never uses a condom when giving a blow job, etc. etc. etc.), without taking out an ad. Those posts -- indeed, entire threads -- were all deleted.

2. Danielle. Danielle has put up posts strongly suggesting where she works. Those have all been allowed to stay up. In addition, in the course of several discussions, guys have asked Danielle (usually gratuitously, by which I mean it wasn't usually called for by anything in the discussion) where she works, or said they thought they knew who she was. Posts responding to those questions or containing such information, whether by Danielle or other posters, have all been deleted (and one of the male posters who posted where she works has been banned).

Putting aside the propriety of the banning, I think the reason those posts were all deleted was that this time -- unlike in Magnifique's case -- the information was clearly being given for commerical or promotional purposes. Guys were asking where Danielle worked so they could come and see her, and that information was being given precisely to permit them to do so. It's easy to see how the APM could have construed any disclosure of Danielle's workplace in that context as constituting at least the functional equivalent of free advertising. Especially in view of what happened after Magnifique was permitted to post her workplace in response to a clearly non-commercial request.

3. billyS's X-Dreams Reviews. BillyS writes very detailed explict reviews of girls who "dance" at X-Dreams. In the course of these reviews, he obviously mentions the "dancers" by name and of course he says where they work. What billy does is obviously permissible because reviews are obviously expected to identify their subject and contain contact information, whether or not the review subject is a UG advertiser.

The big gray area in that context has been distinguishing between actual reviews (where contact info is permissible) and mere promotional posts put up by some customer on a supply-sider's behalf (since you can't circumvent the rules by having someone else do what you yourself cannot). It generally depends on the amount of detail in the post, and the critical approach it takes. Billy's posts couldn't more clearly be reviews. OTOH, if someone posted that "XXX at YYY Club rocked my world -- and she posts on UG as ZZZ", it would probably be construed as a thinly-disguised ad post and taken down.
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So, because Billy writes reviews of the women who work at x-dreams and these women are not UG members it's ok? I thought you just said that having someone else circumvent the rules for you wasn't allowed. These girls are getting tons of bussiness because of Billy's reviews, and while it's not self-promotion becuase the girls aren't writing the reviews themselves, it's still promotion. What if when I registered for this board I had pretended I was not on the supply side, but rather a customer who loved to go to the club I work for. Then I went on to pretend that all my friends and I were "A-girls" there, disclosed our stage names and talked all about us. I could have easily attracted new bussiness to my club in this manner if that's what I was after. But obviously it wasn't. I just wanted to add my .02 to some of the threads here and ask some questions. My admittance of where I work just seemed natural to the way the conversation was going. I honestly never expected you guys to come running to visit me at work, especially considering some of the conversations we've had about hustling and low mileage, etc. It just seemed like everyone thought I was being silly for trying to keep a secret that most everyone knew the answer to anyway. If I was really concerned with promoting myself then I would have tried to share the name of my club a long time ago. Just out of curiosity, if Magnifique were to ask me where I work because she was looking for a new job or something of that nature, would it then be ok? Not that I'm going to do that. Just wondering.


Reign of Terror
Danielle, Let me try to explain this 'Petrie Dish' situation. When I became a member og UG I noticed it was a great place to ask question about anything related to the sex industry. The 'Dish' had just opened and it was the first place I had ever seen where you would go into a room, close, lock the door and the girl would give you a lap dance. So my initial question was if anybody was getting any action at any of these places. When a thread came later and someone else asked, I had answeres and gave them. Actually many of the girls I went on to classify as A-list were recomended by others. However, as is my style, I gave long detailed reviews of my dances. If you see any of my reviews anywhere else on the board this is how I do it. I like to relive the experience by putting in in words and also so other guys know what too expect. So anyway, one time a girl hands me a card with her schedule and another saying she will be doing private shows soon (don't laugh about the soon, to those in the know), so I tell her about UG and tell her she should advertise here. I give her the URL. So anyway before you know it word spreads and all the girls are reading UG. Some like Grant (Dawn) post as themselves ( I miss her posts) but other non-A-list girls set out to first generate a buzz with false reveiws, then when they see they are pissing off Slinky, continue it to get the thread killed. I confronted one of them about it and her answer was 'Good, I'm glad you can't post about your H/R anymore'. Then someone ,since banned set out to pread false rumors of LE action and recomenndeing the ugliest women. So now I will be careful not to promote the place but at the same time, if a girl gives me a great dance, I'd like to be able to talk about it here. I have no where else to discuss it except with you guys and girls. Also if a girl puts that much effort into it I feel she deserves a mention.
This Is Boring

Originally posted by Danielle
So, because Billy writes reviews of the women who work at x-dreams and these women are not UG members it's ok? I thought you just said that having someone else circumvent the rules for you wasn't allowed. These girls are getting tons of bussiness because of Billy's reviews, and while it's not self-promotion becuase the girls aren't writing the reviews themselves, it's still promotion.
The point is that it isn't "having someone circumvent the rules for you" if they write an explicit detailed consumer review. And it's not even "promotion" for the girls when the reviews are unfavorable (as they often are).

As for the rest of your post, I understand that it's obvious that you didn't come here to promote yourself. And I understand your point that it's stupid not to be able to say what everybody knows anyway.

But look at it the way the Board must look at it: other than possibly increasing your business, why would you care about having the name of your club posted? How would it in any way improve your ability to engage in the kind of discourse you've been engaging in here? So isn't it understandable that it could be viewed as promotion, since it really doesn't serve any other purpose?

(PS -- I have no axe to grind here. I'm not saying I would have come down the same way slinkybender did. I'm just saying that I can understand how and why he reached the results he reached.)
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ok. that makes sense. And I did realize that admitting where I worked might make it more difficult for me to post honestly. That's why I chose not to just come right out and say it in the beginning, or to use my stage name at work as my screen name here. But after so much prompting from other members, I began to feel like everyone knew anyway so they all thought I was being stupid by maintaining this facade of secrecy. That's why I told. I do understand why Slinky deleted the thread even though I don't really agree with the action.


homo economicus
Danielle (and the rest) - the other thing that you have to realize is that SB's sometimes harsh enforcement of the rules is derived from repeated past abuses. Board policy here used to be fairly liberal, and that of course led to abuse. Rather than spend a lot of time figuring out what is abuse and what is accidental breaking of the rules, I think the APM now errs on the side of banning.

Still, D-U has been here a long time. He knows how the APM enforces the rules and I think he should have been more careful. Would I have banned him for what he did? Probably not. However, had I moderated a PMB for the last couple of years and had my liberal policies constantly abused, my answer might be different.
Too Many Strippers

There are too many stripper because it is so commericial now,
it like a song being played out on the radio.

I think out of all the threads the Xdreams one was the most
interesting and detailed and it managed to stay on the
topic at hand. You got to know the inside of the Xdreams
world through your vivid imagination a descripitions of
words. Unfortunately a small few messed things up for
people. When the thread was up I never posted
because, I stand behind my word and if I am going to post
I want you to know the it is coming from Sinful "7".
The cutting of the thread is what made me start posting,
and I like to talk freely that is why I put in an ad in the
classified, it is worth it for freedom of speech.

I honestly believe that in less than 10 years the computer
will be the main frame to sexual endeavors. The why I
consider myself a Virtual-Reality Sexual Entertainer. I
notice that alot of people find themselves surfing
the net for personal entertainment, are tippie toeing
into the future of tech, and than their people like me,
and other poster, places like the ass-con club that sought
out sexuality on the web and understand the future of it
we are the rare few that water on water.

People watch Jerry Springer and say if they can do it and so
can I but it is regulate throughly, working in any establishment
your confined to their rules, online you are free to make your
own little world in your website, it allows you to open and
protary yourself how you want to be recognized as, you find out alot about yourself when your tring to display it to the world
(and I mean that literally). Granted there a million and one
adult websites but the freedom that comes with it is worth it.
Just like in the club the money that comes with it is worth it.

When I was at the black jack table in Vegas an old man told
me if you think your on the right track watch out before you
get hit by a train, and that how I feel about the club scene
it will be their for recreational purposes, but if you plan on
staying in the sexual entertainment business for a while,
instead of presenting yourself to a 40 mile radius why not
compass that with the map of the world.

In closing to many stripper because technology moves faster
than the comprenhension of the endless possiblities. People are
copycats instead of pussycats. 7
Well, I have been stripping for 14 years now (geez I am seriously dating myself). I was dancing beofre lap dances started, at least here in NY and those were the good old days to me. Back then stripping was a little more taboo, and the only girls who would strip where the crazy lunatics dames. Billys topless was my favorite for the crazy girls , although now I find I love the xdreams crew even more. Now it seems stripping has been more socially acceptable and you've got these college chicks, as well as the Russians and all the hustlers too with the new incentive of money from laps. I really love all the girls at the dish, but anyone who has been going to clubs for more than ten years has to admit the girls back then were a lot crazier, and I mean real loopy in the head, I loved that.

Slinky Bender

The All Powerful Moderator
I think what really changed things was the advent of the "Gentelmen's Clubs" like Scores. All of a sudden you had girls hearing how you could make $1200 - $2000 a nite and all sorts of girls who would never have considered doing it were jumping into the business left and right.

However, at the same time, i think it actually became easier to get strippers to "see you outside the club" (i.e. prostitution), because it became much more "all about the money", and the more you focus on that, the more the players invovled will do what it takes to get the money. Back in the early 80's , I knew plenty of girls who were very happy making $125 a nite (and I'm not talking about a figure which when adjusted for time is like $1000 a nite in "today's dollars").
Can this mean we're wrong when we all speculate that everyone at a place like the Pussycat HAS to do outside work because otherwise they make so little money? Maybe some of them are the contemporary equivalent of the pre-Scores girls you talk about. (???????)

Slinky Bender

The All Powerful Moderator
Yes and no.

Yes, in that when I say "they all do it", of course I don't mean every last one of them, I just mean enough that it's a reasonbly safe assumption that if you pick one, that she falls into the category.

No, in that the paradigm has changed significantly enough that it's gotten hard for those girls to even make their "old money". As you can sort of extrapolate from another discussion, you can understand why a guy would tip a girl singles for a total of not too significant money even if there was basically no chance of anything "more" comming from it. But not only can you not see a guy tipping HUGE sums for hopes of "nothing", it's harder to get 'small somes in hopes of nothing" when there are opportunities for small sums to get you "a shot at" something for more money (ok, that's almost unintelligble: what I'm trying to say is that if tipping $$ at the stage gets the girl to come over and make small talk with you, and that's all, everyone has a shot at those $; but if a significant number of girls not only make small talk, but during that small talk make pay doates outside the club, it gets harder for the girls who aren't going to include those offers of pay dates to get the "incentive paymente" to "enter into negotiations" than before whn no one did such; does any of this make any sense?). I think it's more of your "bad money crowding out good money".
Makes sense. But it's only true once a guy knows who "does" and who "doesn't". There are plenty of times I'll tip a girl to get her attention only to find out it won't pan out.* Of course, she doens't get a lot of tips from me thereafter. But there are always more guys who don't know (yet).

(The internet changes that for places like ASSCon, where everybody knows who VIPs and who doesn't. But places like the Pussycat don't seem to be as well documented. Yet.)
* Which is why I never saw anything wrong with a stripper's accepting an "inducement" (or "introduction") payment even if she knows she has no intention whatsoever of coming across. As hvb said at some point, that's for her to know and the customer to find out.
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Slinky Bender

The All Powerful Moderator
Yes, but: a) I don't think you can make a great living at the Pussycat out of these inducement payments anyway - $ stage tips just aren't that much, b) my impression is the the Pussycat is a lot of "regulars" on both sides (dancers and customers) so I think the idea that theres some sort of unlimmitted pool of "guys who don't know yet" might be flawed, and c) (sort of corrolary to b) it seems that the guys who are tippers there seem to also be the guys who are regulars there, so it only reinforces the idea that it's hard to make a living off of guys who are assuming "facts not in evidence".
Makes sense.

(OTOH, I read somewhere -- not anywhere credible, I'm sure -- that a girl can make $125-$200 [that's $.25-$$ for you code guys, in case just writing out the amounts is too clear for you] in stage tips a night there. If that's true -- and I have no idea if it is, or even how likely it is -- then I can imagine at least some girls' being willing to live off just that.)
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In my last post I used the term pussycat and copycat
because most of the time in the club, girls copy what the other
girls do to make money. A pussycat worker in the club is innovative everynight and grows with each shift, they come
up with new ideas so that they stay desireable, a copycat
girl are the ones hanging by a thread tring to figure out why they are missing out on the money.

Note: If a woman isn't naturally sexual or at least know
how to play the roll aren't going to get the dances like
those with S.I.Nful thoughts

I choose the term cat to describe the kitty you want to pet

Dawn I found you again online and if anyone knows about
making money it you. I know you independently wealthy (LOL)
Maybe you should make a CD-Rom called "Fatapple takes
a bite of NY" and school these new jacks to the science
of sexuality. You know I have all the equipment to do it.

You know 7 speaks the truth and I will co-sign for Grant
anyday, respect due to those that paved the yellow brick

Slinky Bender

The All Powerful Moderator
Originally posted by justlooking
Makes sense.

(OTOH, I read somewhere -- not anywhere credible, I'm sure -- that a girl can make $125-$200 [that's $.25-$$ for you code guys, in case just writing out the amounts is too clear for you] in stage tips a night there. If that's true -- and I have no idea if it is, or even how likely it is -- then I can imagine at least some girls' being willing to live off just that.)
But see, I think that's using the usual "stripper math". I'm sure that girls "can" make that. It's just that it's very hard to do that every nite. Now, if you're making $80 a nite, but every once in a while (not a long while, like once a week) you make $500, you can deal with it. But if you usually make $50 to $80, and on the good nites you "can" make $200, I don't think that will cut it for most.

But also, how many girls are doing that on that nite? Do you think that you've got 15 girls there and all 15 are making $200 that way? Again, the stripper math kicks in : 2 girls every night make that, and they all pretend it was them who did it (just like guys playing poker). Better to take an average of what all the girls got there and use that. I dougbt that number is $200 with any regularity (and regularity is the only thing which matters in teh long run. When strippers tell me they make 41200 a night, I don't think "It's impossible that she ever made that in any one nite" because all it takes is one stupid guy, one expense account, and some beer. But there's a huge difference between one nite's wages, and a "career". Same with gamblers - they all go to AC/LV and claim they always win - but th etruth is that they tell the "win story" over and over again, when it actually happened only once or twice, and has been well over-run by losses. if these guys actually did as well at the tables as they claimed, they'd give up their day jobs).
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